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Celtic 9 (nine) - 0 Aberdeen
Topic Started: Nov 6 2010, 04:51 PM (2,965 Views)
whatsthatonyourback
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Waldo Jeffers
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The Eggman
Nov 10 2010, 02:21 PM
Different coloured poppies would be useful. I'd wear one that was, say, green, and signified remembrance for Second World War troops only. If you wanted to specifically state Falklands, it could be blue (it was a Tory war, after all). If you wanted to state Aghanistan it could be purple. Or if of course you want to give your support for them all combined, then the basic red one would suffice.

To accurately commemorate the Afghan campaign, surely a poppy covered in poppies would be most appropriate?
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Setenza
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Knitting with only one needle
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The Eggman
Nov 10 2010, 02:21 PM
Different coloured poppies would be useful. I'd wear one that was, say, green, and signified remembrance for Second World War troops only. If you wanted to specifically state Falklands, it could be blue (it was a Tory war, after all). If you wanted to state Aghanistan it could be purple. Or if of course you want to give your support for them all combined, then the basic red one would suffice.

...or if you wanted to support them all, you could get a nice Rainbow coloured one?
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whatsthatonyourback
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Waldo Jeffers
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What about the minute of silence tomorrow at 11? Poppy or not, do you observe that?

Whenever I remember, I do observe it. It's very effective having a proper minute to contemplate war dead - you're free from suggestion or public display, and it means whatever you want it to mean as your thoughts weave around your head in that minute.
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Naebody
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Conan the Destroyer
Nov 10 2010, 02:02 PM
I would gladly commemorate and contribute to those who fought to keep the world free from Nazism.  All other wars I cannot support and, in my admittedly unfashionable opinion, non-conscripted soldiers who are killed in conflict are largely responsible for their demise.

To honour the needlessly slain with military ceremonies celebrating the very misguided ventures that killed them is perverse.  The military should be kept well away from Rememberance Day.

I agree entirely with your last sentence. But it seems to me that the rest of your argument is about the military baggage being attached to Armistice Day. This, as you say, needs to be divorced from a simple act of commemoration in which talk of "honour" and "celebration" are entirely inappropriate. Moreover, I'm not strident enough in my convictions to deny widows and children the charity the British Legion provides based on the validity of specific wars.
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Naebody
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Twat
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The Eggman
Nov 10 2010, 02:21 PM
Different coloured poppies would be useful. I'd wear one that was, say, green, and signified remembrance for Second World War troops only. If you wanted to specifically state Falklands, it could be blue (it was a Tory war, after all). If you wanted to state Aghanistan it could be purple. Or if of course you want to give your support for them all combined, then the basic red one would suffice.

Right. A war validity pick & mix. A handy colour-coded way to say: "I think these people died for the right cause and these people didn't." Honestly - why the f*ck do you think dead people care about your opinion? And why would you feel the need to pomp it to the living?

It's not about supporting anything. It's about remembering.

Note: there's already the white poppy, which is worn exclusively by self-important cockwads.
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whatsthatonyourback
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Waldo Jeffers
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Naebody
Nov 10 2010, 02:38 PM
Note: there's already the white poppy, which is worn exclusively by self-important cockwads.

"Self-knowledge is a dangerous thing." Lou Reed, 1989*


*no stranger to accusations of being a self-important cock-wad
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The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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Naebody
Nov 10 2010, 02:38 PM
Right. A war validity pick & mix. A handy colour-coded way to say: "I think these people died for the right cause and these people didn't." Honestly - why the f*ck do you think dead people care about your opinion? And why would you feel the need to pomp it to the living?

It's not about supporting anything. It's about remembering.

Note: there's already the white poppy, which is worn exclusively by self-important cockwads.

Who says it's for dead people? It's the same reasoning behind yours for wearing any poppy.

Support, remembrance, if you want to get into the semantics behind it, knock yourself out.

Edit: The British Legion doesn't seem to have a problem with the white poppy, but you do.

Now what were you saying about self-important cockwads?
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whatsthatonyourback
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Waldo Jeffers
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The Eggman
Nov 10 2010, 02:46 PM
Support, remembrance, if you want to get into the semantics behind it, knock yourself out.

That's two!
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Naebody
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The Eggman
Nov 10 2010, 02:46 PM
Support, remembrance, if you want to get into the semantics behind it, knock yourself out.

They're different words that mean very different things. This is indeed semantics, though not what you mean by semantics. Though that second sentence was.

My problem with the white poppy is that it says "I think war is wrong." And, with all due respect to the cockwads who wear it, Armistice isn't a moment to be talking about "I". It's an opportunity to be thinking about "they".
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The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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Naebody
Nov 10 2010, 03:27 PM
They're different words that mean very different things. This is indeed semantics, though not what you mean by semantics. Though that second sentence was.

My problem with the white poppy is that it says "I think war is wrong." And, with all due respect to the cockwads who wear it, Armistice isn't a moment to be talking about "I". It's an opportunity to be thinking about "they".

Fair point about the 'they' rather than than the 'I'. However, the 'they' is not clear, which is why a distinction is needed by some people before actively displaying their remembrance.

You can contribute to the cause (the people who will benefit from the contributions, that is) without actively displaying your remembrance (which most people do with the use of the poppy). So there's something ostentatious (perhaps the wrong word there - I don't mean it as showy-offy) about pinning that poppy to your lapel, which then implies it matters what other people, whoever they are, think. So it's not all about 'them', and partly about 'I'.

By that token, I don't want to give the impression that I am remembering all of 'they', because I don't see it with the view that all dead soldiers were heroes who died purely in innocent support of the defence of their country.

I will remember the dead (and the wounded, and the ones that gave their time and effort) of those involved in helping defeat Nazism, and I will do it in my own way. I don't think it's a bad thing that there are memorial services. Far from it. It would be a tragedy if there were no public displays of remembrance, in case the people involved - the wounded, and the families still living - thought that those not involved didn't give a shit.

Edit: And the British Legion seems to see a distinction between who/why to remember, as well.
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Skeletor
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If the Celtic fans are doing it in pure support for Republicanism, they should remember the thousands of Irish republicans that signed themselves up for these earlier wars independently, or as a result of false promise from the British government.
Was it the British army who first started the poppy campaign or did they just offload the burden of their envolvement to it?
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Clarkie
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I think it was Field marshall Haig that was the big driving force behind the poppy appeal and british legion. In scotland it isn't actually the british legion that run the poppy appeal but a charity called the haig fund.


I don't see any problem with it. It was brought about after the first world war a war not fought by good against evil or any such notions although the various parties did try to portray it like that in their propaganda. A lot of the men that fought were volunteers, the majority never having been more than 20 miles form their home town in their lives before the war they got caught up in all the propaganda and the sense of an adventure. After the volunteers dried up there was the white feathers for people who didn't volunteer and conscription came in with jail for concientous objectors.



The Celtic fans who are against it should really research a bit of History about Ireland before the partition, like Willie Redmond and the Irish volunteers who fought and died in France because they believed it would bring about home rule for Ireland after the war. Maybe we should have a green poppy for Celtic to wear.
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Conan the Destroyer
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Naebody
Nov 10 2010, 02:33 PM
Conan the Destroyer
Nov 10 2010, 02:02 PM
I would gladly commemorate and contribute to those who fought to keep the world free from Nazism.  All other wars I cannot support and, in my admittedly unfashionable opinion, non-conscripted soldiers who are killed in conflict are largely responsible for their demise.

To honour the needlessly slain with military ceremonies celebrating the very misguided ventures that killed them is perverse.  The military should be kept well away from Rememberance Day.

I agree entirely with your last sentence. But it seems to me that the rest of your argument is about the military baggage being attached to Armistice Day. This, as you say, needs to be divorced from a simple act of commemoration in which talk of "honour" and "celebration" are entirely inappropriate. Moreover, I'm not strident enough in my convictions to deny widows and children the charity the British Legion provides based on the validity of specific wars.


Fair enough about the widows and children, I can't really argue with that without sounding like a complete cock.

And I'm not trying to score different wars according to the ethics behind them. They're all wrong, with the clear exception of WWII. In my opinion soldiers are all hired killers, no matter how the modern army tries to dress it up.
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YazooArab
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Paul Sturrock
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Boy George once said "War, war is stupid and people are stupid" I don't think there is a poster here that does not at the very least regret war of any description anywhere anytime. I personally do not consider the poppy appeal to glorify war in anyway but I know that others do, When I buy mine I try and imagine what it must be like to be placed in such mortal danger and simply spare a thought for those that have been lost over so many conflicts but especially those that fell on the batlefields of the Great war. When I was a student in the PC 80s I was confliceted about wearing the poppy. As I have gained in awareness and world weariness over the years I have embraced the tradition, not with huge enthusiasm but with a humble acknowledgement that it is one small gesture of solidarity with our armed forces that I can make. I don't like it being hijacked by either those that would glorify war and claim every man and woman in uniform to be a horo or heroine or by those who would make political capital from public opposition to it.

If you choose to buy and wear a poppy do it because it means something to you, whatever that may be, if you choose not to then I respect your decision. We don't need to ram it doen each others throats. :hat:
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findus
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Jerry Kerr
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Conan the Destroyer
Nov 11 2010, 02:52 AM
Naebody
Nov 10 2010, 02:33 PM
Conan the Destroyer
Nov 10 2010, 02:02 PM
I would gladly commemorate and contribute to those who fought to keep the world free from Nazism.  All other wars I cannot support and, in my admittedly unfashionable opinion, non-conscripted soldiers who are killed in conflict are largely responsible for their demise.

To honour the needlessly slain with military ceremonies celebrating the very misguided ventures that killed them is perverse.  The military should be kept well away from Rememberance Day.

I agree entirely with your last sentence. But it seems to me that the rest of your argument is about the military baggage being attached to Armistice Day. This, as you say, needs to be divorced from a simple act of commemoration in which talk of "honour" and "celebration" are entirely inappropriate. Moreover, I'm not strident enough in my convictions to deny widows and children the charity the British Legion provides based on the validity of specific wars.


Fair enough about the widows and children, I can't really argue with that without sounding like a complete cock.

And I'm not trying to score different wars according to the ethics behind them. They're all wrong, with the clear exception of WWII. In my opinion soldiers are all hired killers, no matter how the modern army tries to dress it up.

Pretty much what I argue with people on this issue. Government trained and sanctioned killers, which makes me laugh whenever I hear the uproar! and fear! about those evil people in far off lands having the cheek to run tiny badly organized 'terrorist' training camps.
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