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Scotland team v Spain
Topic Started: Oct 12 2010, 03:39 PM (1,997 Views)
The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 02:30 PM
AND - if you're not sure you can't give it.

You can. If the ref thinks that he probably meant it, then that might be enough. There's nothing in the laws that says the ref has to be sure. Because the laws are in many places vague, they allow different interpretations.

Bear in mind it's split second for the ref as well. He sees a player raise his arm way above his head and the ball hits the arm. And the player hasn't fallen, so there's no reason to think he's that severly off balance. The ref may well have thought "idiot's got his arm well above his head - no excuse. Penalty."
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Conan the Destroyer
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The Eggman
Oct 15 2010, 01:53 PM
Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 02:30 PM
AND - if you're not sure you can't give it.

You can. If the ref thinks that he probably meant it, then that might be enough. There's nothing in the laws that says the ref has to be sure. Because the laws are in many places vague, they allow different interpretations.

Bear in mind it's split second for the ref as well. He sees a player raise his arm way above his head and the ball hits the arm. And the player hasn't fallen, so there's no reason to think he's that severly off balance. The ref may well have thought "idiot's got his arm well above his head - no excuse. Penalty."

Which is why they should remove the ambiguity and remove the ability for the referee to effectively award penalties on a whim. As I said, sanctions are too high to give on a maybe, probably or perhaps basis.

And - "the ball hit his arm" - your words. Not his arm hit the ball. Accidental.
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findus
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Jerry Kerr
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Completely agree, there's no way it was deliberate, Whittaker was clearly trying to balance himself. Why would Whittaker deliberately handball in the penalty area a minute before a hard fought goalless first half? But, going by modern standards for what is and isn't a penalty, it was a correct decision to award the penalty.

I think the problem is, if you let these kind go then there's suddenly a real possibility of players faking these 'accidental' handballs. And more simulation we don't need.

So yeah, never a penalty. Clear penalty.
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The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 03:24 PM
And - "the ball hit his arm" - your words. Not his arm hit the ball. Accidental.

He didn't move his arm in the way of the ball once it had been struck, so in that respect the ball hit his arm. But the ball only hit is arm because his arm was where it shouldn't have been. If he'd been on the six yard line and the ball was definitely going in, and he'd done it (even if he had just been off balance), do you not think a penalty should have been awarded? The only difference with this one was that the ref didn't know if the ball was going in.
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Conan the Destroyer
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findus
Oct 15 2010, 02:34 PM
Completely agree, there's no way it was deliberate, Whittaker was clearly trying to balance himself. Why would Whittaker deliberately handball in the penalty area a minute before a hard fought goalless first half? But, going by modern standards for what is and isn't a penalty, it was a correct decision to award the penalty.

I think the problem is, if you let these kind go then there's suddenly a real possibility of players faking these 'accidental' handballs. And more simulation we don't need.

So yeah, never a penalty. Clear penalty.

So applying laws that don't exist but have been invented in the popular imagination by years of not understanding the actual laws it was a penalty? I can agree with that.

I don't think you could fake an accidental handball like that though. Far too close quarters.

And morally Scotland's chances of getting something from the game were greatly reduced on the basis of an accidental, freak occurence. Did Spain deserve a goal (or as good as) for the "crime" committed. Hardly.
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Conan the Destroyer
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The Eggman
Oct 15 2010, 02:39 PM
If he'd been on the six yard line and the ball was definitely going in, and he'd done it (even if he had just been off balance), do you not think a penalty should have been awarded?

Nope, not if it wasn't intentional.

Did he put his hand above head to try and play the ball? I don't think so.
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The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 03:43 PM
The Eggman
Oct 15 2010, 02:39 PM
If he'd been on the six yard line and the ball was definitely going in, and he'd done it (even if he had just been off balance), do you not think a penalty should have been awarded?

Nope, not if it wasn't intentional.

Did he put his hand above head to try and play the ball? I don't think so.

If a player prevents a certain goal like that, even if they don't mean it, then there should be a penalty. Morally speaking. Technically, it shouldn't, but most refs would
seek to balance that injustice.

Should the rule be written so that 'most of the time a penalty will only be given if a handball is intentional, except when a definite goal has been prevented by accidental handball'? Principally, I believe so, although the wording would look clunky.

Reword it even so 'reckless' use of the arms can lead to a foul.

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findus
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Jerry Kerr
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On another note, why do we have a penalty box? What relevance does being fouled in the corners of the box have with having a clear chance of scoring 1v1 from 12 yards out? Would it not make more sense to change to a somewhat smaller in area penalty semi-circle?
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whatsthatonyourback
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Waldo Jeffers
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findus
Oct 15 2010, 06:58 PM
On another note, why do we have a penalty box? What relevance does being fouled in the corners of the box have with having a clear chance of scoring 1v1 from 12 yards out? Would it not make more sense to change to a somewhat smaller in area penalty semi-circle?

Forget the penalty box - what is the point of a six-yard box? Surely goalkeepers would be able to place the ball for a goal kick without one.

And then there's the centre-circle. Do we really need a pitch marking to ensure players are a certain distance from the ball at kick-off?

Corner flags. Why are these required?
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Anybody
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Also, why two sets of strips? What was ever wrong with shirts and skins? It's all gone too posh
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Skeletor
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You should start playing amateur football locally, you won't have these problems!
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Conan the Destroyer
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Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 02:43 PM
The Eggman
Oct 15 2010, 02:39 PM
If he'd been on the six yard line and the ball was definitely going in, and he'd done it (even if he had just been off balance), do you not think a penalty should have been awarded?

Nope, not if it wasn't intentional.

Did he put his hand above head to try and play the ball? I don't think so.

As I said in the other thread, I thought the ball hit Severin's hand twice yesterday in circumstances very similar to Whittaker's, but this referee's whim was to let it go. Correctly, in my opinion.
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The Eggman
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Conan the Destroyer
Oct 18 2010, 09:17 AM
As I said in the other thread, I thought the ball hit Severin's hand twice yesterday in circumstances very similar to Whittaker's, but this referee's whim was to let it go. Correctly, in my opinion.

I only saw one incident once, where Severin went sliding in, with his arm raised a bit. My one time only view looked like it could have been a result of his slide.

From what I remember of Whittaker's (I only saw it about twice or three times), I can't see how his arm got to be that high. I don't go with the off balance reasoning. Still, when I get time I'll look again.
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