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Scotland team v Spain
Topic Started: Oct 12 2010, 03:39 PM (1,999 Views)
The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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findus
Oct 12 2010, 09:57 PM
Whittaker extremely unlucky to be in the book at all with two challenges a la Gomis in our previous Killie game in the lead up to our goal, clearly and fully won the ball both times.

Hmmm, lucky to be playing given his ineptitude.
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findus
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Jerry Kerr
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The Eggman
Oct 13 2010, 05:02 AM
findus
Oct 12 2010, 09:57 PM
Whittaker extremely unlucky to be in the book at all with two challenges a la Gomis in our previous Killie game in the lead up to our goal, clearly and fully won the ball both times.

Hmmm, lucky to be playing given his ineptitude.

To be fair, he's not a left-back. Who was the better option?
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whatsthatonyourback
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Waldo Jeffers
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Ooft, gashdarnit. That would have been a good point. Still, a bit of a morale boost. And I'm happy to see Sir Craig not being humiliated and discredited.
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The Eggman
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findus
Oct 12 2010, 10:07 PM
To be fair, he's not a left-back. Who was the better option?

Any player that knows not to dive in at any given opportunity and not to throw your arm in te air like he did? Fair enough he started, but I was surprised he was still on the pitch to be sent off.
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Barca87
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It would be churlish not to praise LEvein for the second half and his bold change of putting Adam on, but, but, but. That performance only served to show how awful his management was in Prague.

That game on top of a point or win in Prague would have given us the perfect platform for the next season, as it is, it means absolutely nothing. Nothing out of those two games, initiative back with the Czechs.

But of course people will talk about restoring pride and great performance, typical Scotland etc. Well, I'm fed up with all that, it just underlined how depressing Friday was.
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findus
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Jerry Kerr
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The Eggman
Oct 13 2010, 04:59 AM
findus
Oct 12 2010, 09:57 PM
Well that was exciting for a while there up until the horrendous McManus gift :(

Possibly the worst individual defending I've seen at international level. Apart from his defending against Liechtenstein when Frick scored.

I'm watching online replays now and I get more frustrated every time I see their 3rd goal. We seemed to struggle a number times with judging the flight and pace of the ball last night.
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The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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Barca87
Oct 13 2010, 06:50 AM
That game on top of a point or win in Prague would have given us the perfect platform for the next season, as it is, it means absolutely nothing. Nothing out of those two games, initiative back with the Czechs.

But of course people will talk about restoring pride and great performance, typical Scotland etc. Well, I'm fed up with all that, it just underlined how depressing Friday was.

Sure, but we still have the two main challengers to play at home. Plus Lithuania still need to play the Czechs, and the Czechs have to play Spain twice. And sure, we need to play Spain away, but that's the last match, when they'll already have qualified.
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Conan the Destroyer
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findus
Oct 12 2010, 07:50 PM
McGregor damn unfortunate with the (clear) penalty.

I fancy an argument, you up for it?

There is no way that Whittaker intentionally handled that ball. And to book him was an ultimately costly insult on top of the injury. Don't give me the nonsense about arms in unnatural positions and what-not, those are only guidelines to help a referee judge whether a player is intending to play the ball with his hand. Given it was blasted at him from a couple of metres away and he was clearly stretching trying to block with his foot there is no way he intended to play it with his hand.

I suggest the only answer is to change the rules to a strict liability version. If the ball hits your hand or arm it's a direct free kick or penalty. Referees seem utterly incapable of applying the rule as it stands with anything approaching consistency.
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The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 12:15 PM
Given it was blasted at him from a couple of metres away and he was clearly stretching trying to block with his foot there is no way he intended to play it with his hand.

Why was his arm raised so high, then?
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Conan the Destroyer
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The Eggman
Oct 15 2010, 11:32 AM
Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 12:15 PM
Given it was blasted at him from a couple of metres away and he was clearly stretching trying to block with his foot there is no way he intended to play it with his hand.

Why was his arm raised so high, then?

Balance? Stretching for the ball? Bad posture? Poland Syndrome?

You think he was deliberately and intentionally trying to play the ball with his hand? No other adverbs (recklessly, stupidly) will do.
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The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 12:39 PM
You think he was deliberately and intentionally trying to play the ball with his hand? No other adverbs (recklessly, stupidly) will do.

I'm not sure. It may have been similar to the Lucas Neill v Italy incident in 2006, where he meant to "slip", knowing he would obstruct Grosso, hoping to get away with the foul. Maybe Whittaker thought the shot was going in, and raised his arm in case it was, and thought he'd run the risk of the ref saying ball to arm. Perhaps I'm giving him more devious credit than is due. Loads of players can stretch their leg without their arm going up in such an obvious manner.

Poland Syndrome :haha:
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Conan the Destroyer
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The Eggman
Oct 15 2010, 11:53 AM
Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 12:39 PM
You think he was deliberately and intentionally trying to play the ball with his hand?  No other adverbs (recklessly, stupidly) will do.

I'm not sure. It may have been similar to the Lucas Neill v Italy incident in 2006, where he meant to "slip", knowing he would obstruct Grosso, hoping to get away with the foul. Maybe Whittaker thought the shot was going in, and raised his arm in case it was, and thought he'd run the risk of the ref saying ball to arm. Perhaps I'm giving him more devious credit than is due. Loads of players can stretch their leg without their arm going up in such an obvious manner.

Poland Syndrome :haha:

If you're not sure you can't award a penalty. The punishment is too severe.

I don't think he had time to react to where the ball was going and move his arm into position. It would have been a matter of milliseconds between the ball being blasted and contact with his arm. Isn't normal human reaction time around 0.2 of a second? And Whittaker would be slower than that I'm sure.
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The Eggman
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Tommy McLean
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Conan the Destroyer
Oct 15 2010, 01:13 PM
If you're not sure you can't award a penalty. The punishment is too severe.

I don't think he had time to react to where the ball was going and move his arm into position. It would have been a matter of milliseconds between the ball being blasted and contact with his arm. Isn't normal human reaction time around 0.2 of a second? And Whittaker would be slower than that I'm sure.

It's rare to be certain (eg Suarez's handball during the World Cup). Athletes should be able to move their legs without raising their arms like that.

The law of the game does indeed say that an offence for handball does need to be intentional. The grey area comes when the shot's been hit hard but at a moving arm. If Whittaker had had his arm even close to where it would be naturally, then the chances are that it wouldn't have been a penalty. But because his arm was raised so high, it left the ref little option. I'd have given the penalty, and almost all refs would have as well.
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Barca87
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Gordon Chisholm
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I dont want to be the do gooder who tries to break up a possible fight in the playground, but isn't the real issue, as with McManus, Whittaker getting caught woefully out of position and therefore putting himself in a position to have to defend the cross off balance and with the wrong body shape etc?
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Conan the Destroyer
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So he was off balance? So he wasn't trying to handle the ball? No pen!

And the ref for Ross County v United in the League Cup didn't give a penalty for an identikit in the first minute. No consistency whatsoever.

AND - if you're not sure you can't give it. You wouldn't give a penalty for a trip if you weren't sure would you? You wouldn't book a guy for diving if you weren't sure. And you wouldn't award a goal if you weren't sure the ball was over the line. Same standards should apply.
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