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Bank debt gone; Apparently...
Topic Started: Feb 7 2014, 09:59 AM (5,458 Views)
Naebody
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Twat
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TheDean
Feb 8 2014, 06:39 PM
Naebody
Feb 7 2014, 11:10 PM
Admittedly I'm drunk right now, but I'm suddenly feeling a lot less positive about this development. 49/51%.
Clearly a frequent event
Yes, Lady Astor, but in the morning* I shall be sober.

My problem with being asked to say, "hooray, the debt's lower" is that our information was on the debt has been sketchy for decades, with millions added and subtracted seemingly arbitarilly. For example, if the debt really did move from £5.5m to £8.5m on a change of owner then someone should probably be in jail. But, hey, it's a private company and when it comes down to it we're customers, not stakeholders. We'll only ever be told what advantageous for us to hear. The private placement of bonds may be a positive but has only added to the fug, unfortunately, and this "community-booster businessfolk" narrative doesn't give me much comfort.

What might have been interesting would've been a quasi-public bond issue. Anyone with >£1000 could buy a slice of United's debt on the same terms as Thompson's consortium. That might've been an innovative approach to fan ownership: the club spreads risk without having to involve a mob of irascible numpties in the day-to-day operstions, and the fans buy something of value rather than having their loyalties exploited to flog overpriced equity. Would you buy a 10 year bond that paid a 5% yield and would be redeemed in full if United can make it to 2023 without going bust? On reflection, I think I probably would -- assuming someone would first give me a definitive answer on how much bloody debt there bloody is.

* Probably not before 11am, if I'm realistic.
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reekie
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lum raker
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Maybe someone could table your questions at the upcoming United Q&A.

I think calling these new investors "irascible numpties" is probably wide of the mark. I'd imagine, given they have money they can afford to plough into a football club, that they're fairly wealthy, shrewd businessmen.

Regarding the bond issue, I'm sure there was a another quote from Spence about these people not wanting their money back in "eight, nine or ten years".
Again, this isn't verified but I'd suggest, given his obvious ties to the club, that Spence wouldn't put it out there unless it was fairly accurate.
Edited by reekie, Feb 9 2014, 09:39 AM.
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Naebody
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Twat
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reekie
Feb 9 2014, 09:38 AM
I think calling these new investors "irascible numpties" is probably wide of the mark. I'd imagine, given they have money they can afford to plough into a football club, that they're fairly wealthy, shrewd businessmen.
Sorry, I didn't expain that very well. I meant the average fan-stakeholder model where a thousand or so fans throw in a few quid and the club has to end up having to pretend to listen to the mob's representatives (who tend to either be self-selected loudmouths or the kind of people who pop a stork about bureaucratic process). Selling the fans debt instead would give them ultimate control without having to listen to their bullshit.

Agree that, whoever's gone in with ST on this debt issue, it looks a pretty shrewd investment. It's certainly not charity.
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zico
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Ivan Golac
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Its strange to think that this is being assumed in some quarters as a good thing?

Who are these debt holders?

What is secured against the debt?

Why do this now?

What is their motivation?

Is Tannadice now 'owned' by somebody else?

Whilst ST is a good chairman is it possible?
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vvhatsthatonyourback
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wild eyed
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zico
Feb 9 2014, 04:42 PM
Its strange to think that this is being assumed in some quarters as a good thing?

Who are these debt holders?

What is secured against the debt?

Why do this now?

What is their motivation?

Is Tannadice now 'owned' by somebody else?

Whilst ST is a good chairman is it possible?
Let me be the first to say that you, zico, are making a lot of sense there and asking very pertinent questions.
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zico
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Ivan Golac
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Ok im sorry for that brief outpouring of sense

Totally unlike me
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zico
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Ivan Golac
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Ok im sorry for that brief outpouring of sense

Totally unlike me
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vvhatsthatonyourback
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wild eyed
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zico
Feb 10 2014, 11:00 AM
Ok im sorry for that brief outpouring of sense

Totally unlike me
Don't milk it.

Brief indeed.
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Morvant's Finest
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Tommy McLean
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Ach well, I'll have a go and everyone else can feel free to correct me (using the little public information that's out there):
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Who are these debt holders?
From what I can gather, no-one appears to know? All will be revealed soon as this intriguing titbit suggests "Importantly, this restructuring will also allow us to utilise the club’s assets to a greater extent for the benefit of the local community and we will be providing details of our plans for this over the coming weeks.”"
Quote:
 
What is secured against the debt?
According to ST, the details of the re-structuring are "confidential", so we might not know anytime soon.
Quote:
 
Why do this now?
Can only presume the yearly interest payments are more favourable, the overall amount owed has been reduced and it removes the influence the bank had to "encourage" the club to try to sell (or at least hawk in a fairly shameless manner) promising young players every transfer window.
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What is their motivation?
Not sure who you mean? The club or the investors? If you means the investors: well they're getting an annual interest payment on a loan and you would imagine some influence in the club they support. If you mean the club: see above.
Quote:
 
Is Tannadice now 'owned' by somebody else?
You've have to think almost certainly not. Although it may not be too far fetched to imagine that if the club were to fail to meet agreed fixed interest payments in the coming years, there might just be a penalty clause that could see the funds converted into some form of investment in the club?
Quote:
 
Whilst ST is a good chairman is it possible?
Nope, I'm all out of ammo on that one.
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yasser
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Ivan Golac
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Who are these investors?

Well, word on the street in Dundee suggests one of them is the bloke who owns the local Company, GA Engineering and perhaps despite past friction between ST and John Bennett I would imagine he is likely to be one of these 'United minded' chaps involved
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Naebody
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Twat
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yasser
Feb 10 2014, 02:35 PM
GA Engineering
Oh, right. I always thought it said C1 on the back of the shirts.

Posted Image
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Morvant's Finest
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Tommy McLean
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yasser
Feb 10 2014, 02:35 PM
Who are these investors?

Well, word on the street in Dundee suggests one of them is the bloke who owns the local Company, GA Engineering and perhaps despite past friction between ST and John Bennett I would imagine he is likely to be one of these 'United minded' chaps involved
Thanks for that yasser, I did find it slightly odd that no-one seemed to be in the know yet as to who was actually putting up the money.

If GA are involved this recent Courier article about GA Engineering contains a slightly ironic detail.
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A high-end Dundee engineering firm is to take on 60 new apprentices over the next five years following a £1.8 million cash injection.

GA Engineering manufactures precision-tooled components for use in the oil and gas, chemical and automotive industries from its base at Pitkerro industrial estate.

The firm — which counts Halliburton, Expro and WL Gore among its client base — has secured a new five-year banking facility with Lloyds TSB and the Bank of Scotland and created a new training academy at its Dundee headquarters.
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Setenza
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Knitting with only one needle
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I think we should start a new rumour on who put the money in. I heard it was Jim McLean.
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zico
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Ivan Golac
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I heard it was peter and jimmy marr with ron dixons ghost and timothy claypole from rentaghost
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the.mule
Ian McCall
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zico
Feb 10 2014, 11:00 AM
Ok im sorry for that brief outpouring of sense

Totally unlike me
At this rate you and that other bawhum vvill master the art of uploading avatars and giving yourself screen presence
But aye, thats probably the best post ye've fired oot wi. We need more clarity on the nature of whits goin on wi this debt. We're basically placin trust in ST while he gives a bit of vagueness to Spencie. It's our trust in the man that guides us through. If that was Charles Green we'd be on tenderhooks. So i emailed ST the noo an says ''mon eh, giez clarity''. Not too much to ask. Probably won't get a reply. So i'm left to judge performances on the park. That's all the security i need.
What i'm sayin is this: If we win the next game the pressures off. Get yer avatars uploaded guys, jesus.
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