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Anders Behring Breivik; Sane?
Topic Started: Apr 17 2012, 03:50 PM (3,714 Views)
The Eggman Apr 22 2012, 05:34 PM Post #31
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Tommy McLean
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Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 02:56 PM
But perfectly sane people can commit atrocities too, it's only by listening to him that you can judge his state of mind. Unlike some on here I don't find listening to what he has to say as some mentally draining exercise with no outcome, and it's not like I'm writing a blog on it or demanding a certain action against him.

I'm just talking about the topic; is Breivik sane or is he insane? I think insane and have no other way to judge that than by reading about his comments in court, in the Metro each day during a 20min train journey.
Really?

What does sanity mean to you?
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yasser Apr 22 2012, 05:40 PM Post #32
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Ivan Golac
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Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 02:56 PM
Quote:
 
But perfectly sane people can commit atrocities too,
No they don't. Perfectly insane people do.
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Skeletor Apr 22 2012, 06:09 PM Post #33
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yasser
Apr 22 2012, 05:40 PM
Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 02:56 PM
Quote:
 
But perfectly sane people can commit atrocities too,
No they don't. Perfectly insane people do.
Consider a trial of Slobodan Milosevic. Declared insane in a court of law?
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yasser Apr 22 2012, 06:24 PM Post #34
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Ivan Golac
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Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 06:09 PM
yasser
Apr 22 2012, 05:40 PM
Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 02:56 PM
Quote:
 
But perfectly sane people can commit atrocities too,
No they don't. Perfectly insane people do.
Consider a trial of Slobodan Milosevic. Declared insane in a court of law?
There is surely a big difference ordering atrocities from afar than actually committing them.

Take the situation of the crew (and there were 100s of them) of an RAF Lancaster bomber over Dresden. It was very easy to drop high explosive onto an city packed with refugees from 25,000 feet where the crew are completely divorced from the horrors taking place on the ground.

Compare this to Breivik standing in front of kids looking into their eyes listening to them plead for their lives then shooting them in the head before moving on.
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Skeletor Apr 22 2012, 07:24 PM Post #35
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Most likely to be Ann Widdecombe
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yasser
Apr 22 2012, 06:24 PM
Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 06:09 PM
yasser
Apr 22 2012, 05:40 PM
Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 02:56 PM
Quote:
 
But perfectly sane people can commit atrocities too,
No they don't. Perfectly insane people do.
Consider a trial of Slobodan Milosevic. Declared insane in a court of law?
There is surely a big difference ordering atrocities from afar than actually committing them.

Take the situation of the crew (and there were 100s of them) of an RAF Lancaster bomber over Dresden. It was very easy to drop high explosive onto an city packed with refugees from 25,000 feet where the crew are completely divorced from the horrors taking place on the ground.

Compare this to Breivik standing in front of kids looking into their eyes listening to them plead for their lives then shooting them in the head before moving on.
Okay, the soldier who acted out the order to commit atrocities. Sane or insane in a court of law?
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Skeletor Apr 22 2012, 07:28 PM Post #36
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yasser
Apr 22 2012, 06:24 PM
Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 06:09 PM
yasser
Apr 22 2012, 05:40 PM
Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 02:56 PM
Quote:
 
But perfectly sane people can commit atrocities too,
No they don't. Perfectly insane people do.
Consider a trial of Slobodan Milosevic. Declared insane in a court of law?
There is surely a big difference ordering atrocities from afar than actually committing them.

Take the situation of the crew (and there were 100s of them) of an RAF Lancaster bomber over Dresden. It was very easy to drop high explosive onto an city packed with refugees from 25,000 feet where the crew are completely divorced from the horrors taking place on the ground.

Compare this to Breivik standing in front of kids looking into their eyes listening to them plead for their lives then shooting them in the head before moving on.
You can murder several people and be considered sane, that's the point I'm trying to get across, and it's the question the thread is based on.

I've already been criticised for reading the paper and giving an opinion. Surely you can see that sane people can murder several people. What about Al Qaeda terrorists? Are they all declared insane in court?
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The Eggman Apr 22 2012, 09:00 PM Post #37
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Tommy McLean
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Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 07:28 PM
You can murder several people and be considered sane, that's the point I'm trying to get across, and it's the question the thread is based on.

I've already been criticised for reading the paper and giving an opinion. Surely you can see that sane people can murder several people. What about Al Qaeda terrorists? Are they all declared insane in court?
This isn't the same as a military operation and that kind of justification. This was a purely personal desire to murder. Quite clearly there's a difference between doing something you've been commanded to do, and doing something you wilfully choose to do.

Just because someone isn't declared insane in court, that doesn't mean they aren't insane.
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Skeletor Apr 22 2012, 10:10 PM Post #38
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The Eggman
Apr 22 2012, 09:00 PM
Just because someone isn't declared insane in court, that doesn't mean they aren't insane.
Nope, I think you're wrong there. They're assessed by a qualified psychiatrist as part of the trial.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15928316
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The Eggman Apr 23 2012, 07:24 AM Post #39
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Tommy McLean
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Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 10:10 PM
The Eggman
Apr 22 2012, 09:00 PM
Just because someone isn't declared insane in court, that doesn't mean they aren't insane.
Nope, I think you're wrong there. They're assessed by a qualified psychiatrist as part of the trial.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15928316
"The principle [upheld here] is that he had no conscious choice of action due to his psychotic illness, he had no consciousness to choose... they did not know that killing was wrong at the time"

So that's your definition of insanity:not being able to choose, and/or t they didn't think they were doing wrong?
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radger Apr 23 2012, 12:31 PM Post #40
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Craig Brewster
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 If I'm being honest I really don't care whether he's insane or not. It's not just that he's mercilessly killed all those people, it's that it doesn't bother him in the slightest, there's zero remorse. I'd want him to live the rest of his life in as much pain as possible. I'm so sickened by it.

Theres another notorious attack that happened in the 60s some of you might know about. Charles Whitman, the Texas shooter. He murdered his wife and mother before going up a tower and killing a dozen or so people with a sniper rifle. link to his wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Whitman kept a journal and in it he spoke about how he was experiencing more and more irrational thoughts, he made another entry after killing his mother and wife and spoke about how much he loved them. He also asked for an autopsy on his brain after he died. The autopsy showed a walnut sized tumour in his brain.

Make of that what you will, but for me theres a difference between someone trying to be a good person with a condition that influences their behaviour and someone that for whatever reason feels proud of committing a massive atrocity.
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Skeletor Apr 23 2012, 01:32 PM Post #41
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The Eggman
Apr 23 2012, 07:24 AM
Skeletor
Apr 22 2012, 10:10 PM
The Eggman
Apr 22 2012, 09:00 PM
Just because someone isn't declared insane in court, that doesn't mean they aren't insane.
Nope, I think you're wrong there. They're assessed by a qualified psychiatrist as part of the trial.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15928316
"The principle [upheld here] is that he had no conscious choice of action due to his psychotic illness, he had no consciousness to choose... they did not know that killing was wrong at the time"

So that's your definition of insanity:not being able to choose, and/or t they didn't think they were doing wrong?
At what point did I write the article?
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The Eggman Apr 23 2012, 02:12 PM Post #42
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Tommy McLean
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Skeletor
Apr 23 2012, 01:32 PM
At what point did I write the article?
I'm asking what your definition is, Skellie. Just because the court uses that for its meaning of insanity here (according to one journalist who's asked one "qualified psychiatrist" of course), that doesn't mean everyone does, or should.

I asked further up the thread: what does insanity mean to you? I'm not being facetious, and haven't insulted you so far, so don't get on your high horse :hat:
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whatsthatonyourback Apr 24 2012, 02:05 AM Post #43
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Waldo Jeffers
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The Eggman
Apr 23 2012, 02:12 PM
Skeletor
Apr 23 2012, 01:32 PM
At what point did I write the article?
I'm asking what your definition is, Skellie. Just because the court uses that for its meaning of insanity here (according to one journalist who's asked one "qualified psychiatrist" of course), that doesn't mean everyone does, or should.

I asked further up the thread: what does insanity mean to you? I'm not being facetious, and haven't insulted you so far, so don't get on your high horse :hat:
This Eggs/Skel argument has yet to scale the heights of a horse I'm afraid.
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findus Apr 25 2012, 12:49 PM Post #44
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Jerry Kerr
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 To be fair, he does look the type in this photo...

Posted Image
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The Eggman Apr 25 2012, 12:55 PM Post #45
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Tommy McLean
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findus
Apr 25 2012, 12:49 PM
To be fair, he does look the type in this photo...

Posted Image
Looks a bit like Gregor Fisher in the combover skit (with more hair, of course).
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