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#1ET hashtag
Tweet Topic Started: Oct 14 2011, 12:54 PM (1,712 Views)
findus	Oct 15 2011, 09:56 AM Post #16
Jerry Kerr Posts: 4,444 Group: Members Member #2 Joined: September 10, 2010	Ivan Oct 15 2011, 08:37 AM reekie Oct 14 2011, 10:14 PM Ivan Oct 14 2011, 07:02 PM How wonderfully maudlin. Aw, Ivan. That's awfully unfair. Did you have to change more than your fair share of poopy nappies today? Fair enough. I just find the beatification of Thompson rather disproportionate and overly sentimental. He was a guy with a lot of money who frittered it on the club to no particular effect and oversaw a period of sustained failure. Alternatively 'oversaw a period that stopped us from sinking'.



Ivan	Oct 15 2011, 10:32 AM Post #17
F*cking plebs. Posts: 1,749 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: September 10, 2010	findus Oct 15 2011, 09:56 AM Ivan Oct 15 2011, 08:37 AM reekie Oct 14 2011, 10:14 PM Ivan Oct 14 2011, 07:02 PM How wonderfully maudlin. Aw, Ivan. That's awfully unfair. Did you have to change more than your fair share of poopy nappies today? Fair enough. I just find the beatification of Thompson rather disproportionate and overly sentimental. He was a guy with a lot of money who frittered it on the club to no particular effect and oversaw a period of sustained failure. Alternatively 'oversaw a period that stopped us from sinking'. Seriously?



findus	Oct 15 2011, 10:34 AM Post #18
Jerry Kerr Posts: 4,444 Group: Members Member #2 Joined: September 10, 2010	Ivan Oct 15 2011, 10:32 AM findus Oct 15 2011, 09:56 AM Ivan Oct 15 2011, 08:37 AM reekie Oct 14 2011, 10:14 PM Ivan Oct 14 2011, 07:02 PM How wonderfully maudlin. Aw, Ivan. That's awfully unfair. Did you have to change more than your fair share of poopy nappies today? Fair enough. I just find the beatification of Thompson rather disproportionate and overly sentimental. He was a guy with a lot of money who frittered it on the club to no particular effect and oversaw a period of sustained failure. Alternatively 'oversaw a period that stopped us from sinking'. Seriously? I dunno, my alternate universe machine is in shop for repairs



whatsthatonyourback	Oct 15 2011, 01:56 PM Post #19
Waldo Jeffers Posts: 4,443 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: September 10, 2010	Ivan Oct 15 2011, 10:32 AM findus Oct 15 2011, 09:56 AM Ivan Oct 15 2011, 08:37 AM reekie Oct 14 2011, 10:14 PM Ivan Oct 14 2011, 07:02 PM How wonderfully maudlin. Aw, Ivan. That's awfully unfair. Did you have to change more than your fair share of poopy nappies today? Fair enough. I just find the beatification of Thompson rather disproportionate and overly sentimental. He was a guy with a lot of money who frittered it on the club to no particular effect and oversaw a period of sustained failure. Alternatively 'oversaw a period that stopped us from sinking'. Seriously? Yes. Unless you view going into Admin as not sinking - which is a perfectly valid view.



Skeletor	Oct 15 2011, 03:31 PM Post #20
Most likely to be Ann Widdecombe Posts: 2,157 Group: Members Member #10 Joined: September 10, 2010	Ivan Oct 15 2011, 08:37 AM reekie Oct 14 2011, 10:14 PM Ivan Oct 14 2011, 07:02 PM How wonderfully maudlin. Aw, Ivan. That's awfully unfair. Did you have to change more than your fair share of poopy nappies today? Fair enough. I just find the beatification of Thompson rather disproportionate and overly sentimental. He was a guy with a lot of money who frittered it on the club to no particular effect and oversaw a period of sustained failure. Sad for his family and friends that he died so young but I think his importance in the grand scheme of things tends to be overstated by some people. That post just about sums you up. I'm going to now assume you suffer from Asperger's syndrome and consider this when I read any of your posts in the future.



Ivan	Oct 15 2011, 05:11 PM Post #21
F*cking plebs. Posts: 1,749 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: September 10, 2010	Skeletor Oct 15 2011, 03:31 PM Ivan Oct 15 2011, 08:37 AM reekie Oct 14 2011, 10:14 PM Ivan Oct 14 2011, 07:02 PM How wonderfully maudlin. Aw, Ivan. That's awfully unfair. Did you have to change more than your fair share of poopy nappies today? Fair enough. I just find the beatification of Thompson rather disproportionate and overly sentimental. He was a guy with a lot of money who frittered it on the club to no particular effect and oversaw a period of sustained failure. Sad for his family and friends that he died so young but I think his importance in the grand scheme of things tends to be overstated by some people. That post just about sums you up. I'm going to now assume you suffer from Asperger's syndrome and consider this when I read any of your posts in the future. If we accept that the emotional spectrum runs from autism to knicker-wetting hysteria, then yeah, I'm probably closer to the autistic end. It's one of my finer points.



Ivan	Oct 15 2011, 05:12 PM Post #22
F*cking plebs. Posts: 1,749 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: September 10, 2010	whatsthatonyourback Oct 15 2011, 01:56 PM Ivan Oct 15 2011, 10:32 AM findus Oct 15 2011, 09:56 AM Ivan Oct 15 2011, 08:37 AM reekie Oct 14 2011, 10:14 PM Ivan Oct 14 2011, 07:02 PM How wonderfully maudlin. Aw, Ivan. That's awfully unfair. Did you have to change more than your fair share of poopy nappies today? Fair enough. I just find the beatification of Thompson rather disproportionate and overly sentimental. He was a guy with a lot of money who frittered it on the club to no particular effect and oversaw a period of sustained failure. Alternatively 'oversaw a period that stopped us from sinking'. Seriously? Yes. Unless you view going into Admin as not sinking - which is a perfectly valid view. No, administration is not sinking. It's a solution. Taking the club further into debt, as Thompson did, is sinking.



Homer	Oct 15 2011, 05:40 PM Post #23
Ian McCall Posts: 640 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: September 10, 2010	That's an insult to Aspergers sufferers everywhere, to suggest they could be afflicted with Ivan



The Eggman	Oct 16 2011, 02:00 PM Post #24
Tommy McLean Posts: 2,119 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: September 10, 2010	Ivan Oct 15 2011, 05:12 PM No, administration is not sinking. It's a solution. Taking the club further into debt, as Thompson did, is sinking. Adminstration would very possibly have come with relegation, and then a hell of a struggle to get back to the SPL. We could be just another Dundee right now, and not having had the 2010 Scottish Cup win, and some decent sides (2008-11) to watch.



Ivan	Oct 16 2011, 02:55 PM Post #25
F*cking plebs. Posts: 1,749 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: September 10, 2010	The Eggman Oct 16 2011, 02:00 PM Ivan Oct 15 2011, 05:12 PM No, administration is not sinking. It's a solution. Taking the club further into debt, as Thompson did, is sinking. Adminstration would very possibly have come with relegation, and then a hell of a struggle to get back to the SPL. We could be just another Dundee right now, and not having had the 2010 Scottish Cup win, and some decent sides (2008-11) to watch. I think that scenario's rather unlikely but I'm okay with it nonetheless. I wonder where we'd be just now if Thompson had actually fixed the finances when he took over by adopting a sensible strategy ten years ago rather than largely wasting his fortune lining the pockets of a succession of failed managers, players and the bank - alternatively, if he couldn't handle that, then administration would have been a solution. Just to be clear, I bear the man's memory no ill-will and when he bought United it was his private company to do with as he wished. He chose to spunk his money up the wall and as a result the club sank further into debt. His club, his money, his decisions - all fair enough. Just don't expect me to share in the collective delusion that he was some sort of selfless philanthropist. I realise that this isn't a popular view. I'm okay with that.



findus	Oct 16 2011, 03:05 PM Post #26
Jerry Kerr Posts: 4,444 Group: Members Member #2 Joined: September 10, 2010	The Eggman Oct 16 2011, 02:00 PM Ivan Oct 15 2011, 05:12 PM No, administration is not sinking. It's a solution. Taking the club further into debt, as Thompson did, is sinking. Adminstration would very possibly have come with relegation, and then a hell of a struggle to get back to the SPL. We could be just another Dundee right now, and not having had the 2010 Scottish Cup win, and some decent sides (2008-11) to watch. Pretty much my thinking on this. In addition, if we're looking for the fate of a club that's suffered from spunking their legibility from a speeding playground roundabout with balls that they didn't even have, look no further than them across the road. Some figures pre and post Family Thompson era would be handy (along with context of what was going on with other clubs around us and what has happened to them since).



Naebody	Oct 16 2011, 04:26 PM Post #27
Twat Posts: 5,210 Group: Members Member #20 Joined: September 13, 2010	Ok. Let's go back over the officially sanctioned ET story. There's an interview with Shagger McTornscone giving precise figures but I can't find it immediately, so will have to do this my memory. In September 2002, when Thompson took over, the club had £4m debt. It was also -- somehow -- losing circa £2.5m a year and -- somehow -- that loss hadn't been added onto the debt since fiscal year-end April 2001. So, by April 2003, seven months or so into ownership, there was around £5m of new debt. As a result, about half of the ET "invested" £5m into United went to paying the previous regime's operating losses. Personally, I struggle to understand how any business United's size could have been losing £2.5m a year. I also fail to understand how a business structured to lose £2.5m perpetually could only have £4m debt. However, if we take all this as fact then ET pulled United out of a tailspin that would've ended in something much worse than administration. Businesses that broken aren't usually saved. The alternative take is that the £2.5m loss in 2001 was exceptional in the sense that McLean was an exceptional f*ckwit, and the losses that followed were a result of ET building his castle without fixing the broken foundations. In this scenario, all ET did was kick all the club's problems a decade down the road. I don't know which is the accurate history. I don't know if ET wasted all of his £5m or merely most of it. If the latter is true then, sure, give him credit for saving the club -- albeit in the most foolish way possible. There's no shame in that. He was a fan, and fans act foolishly. It's the definition. Yet surely none of us deserves praise for our foolishness alone.



The Eggman	Oct 16 2011, 05:02 PM Post #28
Tommy McLean Posts: 2,119 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: September 10, 2010	Ivan Oct 16 2011, 02:55 PM I think that scenario's rather unlikely but I'm okay with it nonetheless. I wonder where we'd be just now if Thompson had actually fixed the finances when he took over by adopting a sensible strategy ten years ago rather than largely wasting his fortune lining the pockets of a succession of failed managers, players and the bank - alternatively, if he couldn't handle that, then administration would have been a solution. Just to be clear, I bear the man's memory no ill-will and when he bought United it was his private company to do with as he wished. He chose to spunk his money up the wall and as a result the club sank further into debt. His club, his money, his decisions - all fair enough. Just don't expect me to share in the collective delusion that he was some sort of selfless philanthropist. I realise that this isn't a popular view. I'm okay with that. So he made mistakes. I don't think he denied that. Many of the decisions that turned out to be mistakes weren't thought of as mistakes when he made them, ie many, perhaps including yourself, Ivan (apologies if I'm wrong), would have been in agreement with his choices at the time. Hindsight can be a misleading thing. I think you're making a wee bit of a straw man there, with the 'selfless philanthropist' comment. My understanding is that he's revered by most United fans because he put a lot of his own money into the club (which he did) because he loved the club (which he did). I don't think people feel he did it for charity's sakes. He did it for personal reasons. The outcome of those personal reasons was that United had its best season since 1987, and while he made mistakes, he also made some good decisions. In effect, United in 2011 are better off with him having taken over. The alternative would most likely have been administration, and with all the problems that may have come from that (which are of course impossible to state definitively, although it's fair to see we wouldn't have had the good times of 08-11, which were, you have to admit, pretty good).



Ivan	Oct 16 2011, 06:17 PM Post #29
F*cking plebs. Posts: 1,749 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: September 10, 2010	The Eggman Oct 16 2011, 05:02 PM Ivan Oct 16 2011, 02:55 PM I think that scenario's rather unlikely but I'm okay with it nonetheless. I wonder where we'd be just now if Thompson had actually fixed the finances when he took over by adopting a sensible strategy ten years ago rather than largely wasting his fortune lining the pockets of a succession of failed managers, players and the bank - alternatively, if he couldn't handle that, then administration would have been a solution. Just to be clear, I bear the man's memory no ill-will and when he bought United it was his private company to do with as he wished. He chose to spunk his money up the wall and as a result the club sank further into debt. His club, his money, his decisions - all fair enough. Just don't expect me to share in the collective delusion that he was some sort of selfless philanthropist. I realise that this isn't a popular view. I'm okay with that. So he made mistakes. I don't think he denied that. Many of the decisions that turned out to be mistakes weren't thought of as mistakes when he made them, ie many, perhaps including yourself, Ivan (apologies if I'm wrong), would have been in agreement with his choices at the time. Hindsight can be a misleading thing. I think you're making a wee bit of a straw man there, with the 'selfless philanthropist' comment. My understanding is that he's revered by most United fans because he put a lot of his own money into the club (which he did) because he loved the club (which he did). I don't think people feel he did it for charity's sakes. He did it for personal reasons. The outcome of those personal reasons was that United had its best season since 1987, and while he made mistakes, he also made some good decisions. In effect, United in 2011 are better off with him having taken over. The alternative would most likely have been administration, and with all the problems that may have come from that (which are of course impossible to state definitively, although it's fair to see we wouldn't have had the good times of 08-11, which were, you have to admit, pretty good). Actually, I'd say United are almost certainly worse off. The innocent creditors who would have been shafted are better off and United don't have the stigma of administration (yet) but the club would now be better off if Thompson had simply paid down the debts with his cash, or kept his cash and brought the administrators in. That's just my opinion though, you're entitled to yours albeit I'm not convinced you've done your sums. In any event, it's not that I wish to decry the man I'm just not convinced he's the hero some people would have you believe.



The Eggman	Oct 16 2011, 06:31 PM Post #30
Tommy McLean Posts: 2,119 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: September 10, 2010	Ivan Oct 16 2011, 06:17 PM Actually, I'd say United are almost certainly worse off. The innocent creditors who would have been shafted are better off and United don't have the stigma of administration (yet) but the club would now be better off if Thompson had simply paid down the debts with his cash, or kept his cash and brought the administrators in. That's just my opinion though, you're entitled to yours albeit I'm not convinced you've done your sums. In any event, it's not that I wish to decry the man I'm just not convinced he's the hero some people would have you believe. I haven't done any sums. Thompson took over in 2002 when he was healthy. Most likely he didn't plan to spend his fortune indefinitely and intended to get United on an even keel at some point. He was part fan, part businessman. So it's not very realistic to suggest that the owner come in, pay off all the debt straight off, and relinquish ownership or something else idealistic. My concerns about administration aren't anything to do with a stigma. They're about how United would certainly have been far worse off in a squad sense (with possible/probable relegation), and the struggle to come back from that. It's indisputable, surely, that United wouldn't have had last year's Scottish Cup win, and as a fan, that Scottish Cup win meant a lot. Costs have been trimmed, and the debt decreased. The playing side has suffered, but not unreasonably so, and I would much rather have another decade or so of austerity to get straight, rather than getting straight immediately by going into adminstration, and probably being relegated. I fail to see how, since taking over in 2002, United have finished 5th (2004), 5th (2008, 2009) and 3rd (2010) edit: and 4th (2011) with a Scottish Cup win, haven't been relegated, and put together a quite good team, compared to - without Thompson taking over - going into adminstration, probably getting relegated, and perhaps not even getting an SPL finish since 2003 (with certainly no top 6 finish or a Scottish Cup win), is worse off. Sure, United still have a debt of £4 million. What debt do Dundee have, and where are they? Unless you're thinking that in 2015, United will be trailing in Dundee's debt-free wake. Edited by The Eggman, Oct 16 2011, 06:32 PM.

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