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Thompson confirms exits; Most of the midfield to leave
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Topic Started: Mar 9 2011, 10:51 PM (4,512 Views)
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whatsthatonyourback
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Mar 10 2011, 03:44 PM
Post #46
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- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 02:07 PM
Just to be clear, again. I haven't criticised Thompson for deciding against offering contracts to the out of contract players, I've criticised the suggestion that he had no option. That's simply not true, although it is typical of his constant negative, woe is me, unenthusiastic stewardship of the club. So, to summarise, your criticism of ST is that he should be more brutally honest when describing why players were not offered new contracts, and less brutally honest when describing the club's financial position?
And you're reserving your opinion on what he should actually do.
Great to have your input in moving the debate on!
Incidentally - any link to where ST says he has "no option"?
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Ivan
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Mar 10 2011, 04:09 PM
Post #47
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- whatsthatonyourback
- Mar 10 2011, 03:44 PM
- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 02:07 PM
Just to be clear, again. I haven't criticised Thompson for deciding against offering contracts to the out of contract players, I've criticised the suggestion that he had no option. That's simply not true, although it is typical of his constant negative, woe is me, unenthusiastic stewardship of the club.
So, to summarise, your criticism of ST is that he should be more brutally honest when describing why players were not offered new contracts, and less brutally honest when describing the club's financial position? And you're reserving your opinion on what he should actually do. Great to have your input in moving the debate on! Incidentally - any link to where ST says he has "no option"? What?
No, my criticism of the press release, and of your characterisation of the situation, is that we are being described a situation in which the club's fate is outwith the board's control. We've been told that the club can't afford to pay the wages being sought. Eggman, correctly, drew the distinction between can't and won't, which you initially took issue with but now appear to accept with reams of caveats about the possible consequences of choosing any other decision. Not that you or I know what those consequences are, or how much the players are seeking, but, by God, those consequences would be dire.
What if Craig Conway wants another £1,000 per week. Will that ruin the club? £50,000 pa. What if he wants £2,000 per week. Will an additional £100,000 a year be unaffordable if we choose to run the numbers down but keep the quality?
Obviously there is a judgement to be made on how much to spend on established players and the potential returns which could be achieved. Letting good players run out their contracts and making little or no attempt to keep them isn't the only strategy and isn't necessarily the lowest risk strategy or the cheapest strategy. Replacements will have to be sourced. They will cost money. Will they work? Will this be money spunked up the wall? What will be the effect on future league and cup success? What about season ticket sales?
Brutal honesty indeed.
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Ivan
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Mar 10 2011, 04:13 PM
Post #48
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- whatsthatonyourback
- Mar 10 2011, 03:44 PM
Incidentally - any link to where ST says he has "no option"? That's what can't means.
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whatsthatonyourback
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Mar 10 2011, 04:59 PM
Post #49
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- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 04:13 PM
- whatsthatonyourback
- Mar 10 2011, 03:44 PM
Incidentally - any link to where ST says he has "no option"?
That's what can't means. Well, I assumed you would have these at your fingertips since you'd made such a big deal over it, as small as it may be. Anyway, I went to all the effort to find these links below. First three I looked at from today's press. No mention of "can't" or anything synonymous. Where oh where have you deduced that ST is suggesting that his hands are tied and there is nothing that can be done?
Without any evidence to back up your claim, I'd be inclined to think you've made that up to suit your dislike of ST due to, och, whatever it is.
Anyway, here we are - the bold is mine.
Herald:
- The Herald
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Thompson resigned to player exits 10 Mar 2011
Stephen Thompson, the Dundee United chairman, last night reiterated his warning to supporters that they can expect to see departures from Tannadice at the end of the season.
United are resigned to losing Craig Conway, Prince Buaben and Morgaro Gomis when their contracts expire in the summer and are likely to have to fend off bids for others, such as Garry Kenneth and Dusan Pernis.
But Thompson, who has previously said that he will have to trim costs, insists that Peter Houston will still have the resources to remain competitive.
“We will have some difficult decisions to make for next season,” as he reported a £66,000 profit on the back of United’s Scottish Cup victory. “We have a lot of players out of contract and have been trying to re-sign a number of them.
“Some of the younger ones have signed but the more senior ones have not. It’s a case of either what they’re looking for is too much or they’re not keen to sign again.
“Peter is already looking for new players for next season so I would expect to see a few changes in the summer. If you look at any team outside the Old Firm who has won anything, that team is generally broken by two seasons later.
“The good thing from our point of view is that the younger ones are all signed up and we have high hopes for them. It will be harder but we will still have a group of very good players.”
And then The Sun
- The Sun
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United face player exodus DUNDEE UNITED chairman Stephen Thompson last night warned fans to prepare for exits at the end of the season.
Thompson insists they will keep enough resources to continue being competitive.
United are virtually resigned to losing first-team regulars Craig Conway, Prince Buaben and Morgaro Gomis in the summer when their contracts expire.
United are likely to have to rebuff bids for others like Garry Kenneth and Dusan Pernis, who are entering the final year at United.
Boss Peter Houston's budget will be cut for next season.
The likes of David Goodwillie, Scott Robertson, Paul Dixon, Danny Swanson and Jon Daly will still be there.
Thompson yesterday reported United made a £66,000 profit last term on the back of their Scottish Cup triumph, He warned: "We will have some difficult decisions to make for next season.
"We have a lot of guys out of contract and have been trying to re-sign a number of them.
"Some of the younger ones have signed but the senior ones have not.
"It's a case of either what they're looking for is too much or they're not keen to sign again.
"Peter's already looking for new players for next season so I would expect to see a few changes in the summer.
"That's what happens on the back of having a good season.
"If you look at any team outside the Old Firm who's won anything that team is generally broken two seasons later.
"The good thing from our point of view is that the younger ones are all signed up and we have high hopes for them.
"It will be harder but we will still have a group of very good players.
"We have a budget for next season and Peter knows the limitations.
"It will be reduced from this season but that is for the long-term benefit of the club."
United posted a profit on the back of their third-place finish and the Hampden win over Ross County last May.
Thompson added: "This time of year, March and April, is the worst for a football club's finances and in the next few weeks my family will have to put money in again.
"That's not an ideal scenario for us because we want to get to a stage where the business takes care of itself."
And the Record
- The Record
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Dundee United preparing for departure of cup heroes, admits Tannadice chairman Stephen Thompson
Mar 10 2011 By Euan McArthur
DUNDEE UNITED supremo Stephen Thompson last night warned fans to prepare for the break-up of their Scottish Cup-winning side. But he insisted the Tangerines would still have what it takes to continue competing in the top flight next season.
United are resigned to losing first-team regulars Craig Conway, Prince Buaben and Morgaro Gomis in pre-season when their contracts expire.
And the club may be tempted by bids for Garry Kenneth and Dusan Pernis who are entering the final year of their deals.
Boss Peter Houston has revealed his budget will be cut for next season.
But with David Goodwillie, Scott Robertson, Paul Dixon, Danny Swanson and Jon Daly all committed to the club, Thompson believes United can continue to progress with a few new additions.
The chairman, who reported yesterday that United had made a profit of £66,000 last season on the back of their Scottish Cup triumph, said: "We have difficult decisions to make for next season.
"Players are out of contract and we've been trying to re-sign a number of them.
"Some of the younger ones have signed but the more senior lads have not. Peter is already looking for new players so I would expect to see a few changes
"That's what happens on the back of having a good season.
"If you look at any team outside the Old Firm that has won something then their squad has generally been broken up within two years.
"We have a budget for next season and Peter knows the limitations. It will be reduced but that is for the long-term benefit of the club. Making sure the club is still sustainable is the main thing."
United posted a profit on the back of their third-place SPL finish and the Hampden triumph over Ross County.
But Thompson expects to incur losses for this campaign and revealed his family will be investing another six-figure sum to tide United over.
He said: "The profit we made shows how important on-field success is.
"This time of year is the worst for a club's finances and in the next few weeks my family will have to put money in.
"Because of all the call-offs we've had, the cashflow will need a bit of help."
Nailing down a top-six place would boost the coffers and United can't afford to slip up at home to Hamilton tonight.
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Setenza
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Mar 10 2011, 06:09 PM
Post #50
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Knitting with only one needle
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I'd obviously been happier to sell, but overall , I'm not unhappy that we seem to have a plan that were sticking too (for now anyway...). Consistency and a hard line I'm all in favour for . Of course, Thompson had other options or plans available, but he chose one credible plan and thats good.
My main problem is that I've little confidence in club sticking to it. We always seem to jump around our strategy.
As for the players committing, like Swanson, goodwill etc, it's only 1 year I think , so it's still going to be challenges ahead whatever.
I hope that the players moving on do well, if they hit tip form, should be a few in the championship, but few nit been in that form for a while now. Hope the scouts have long memories.
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reekie
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Mar 10 2011, 07:04 PM
Post #51
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- Cobardon
- Mar 10 2011, 10:38 AM
- reekie
- Mar 10 2011, 09:58 AM
So, players that we couldn't sell will now move on for nothing, having stated they'll only stay for salaries that are beyond United's current means. Such is the way of the world. If these guys want to earn more, but drop down a level, by playing for bottom-half Championship/League One sides then the best of luck to them. We wouldn't have enjoyed that day last May without them. Nor would we be entertaining the possibility of a return visit...
More to the point, from those players' points of view, neither would they have enjoyed the cup win, its attendant bonuses and all the glory that went with it. The likes of Middlesbrough aren't likely to win national trophies any time soon. They will pay more though. Yeah, sorry, I was a bit vague but I was implying the lack of trophy opportunities with my prediction of the level of clubs they'd end up at. Hey, Prince has a family and Conway was a hairdresser four years ago, if they want to earn some wedge before the end of their finite careers, they go on their way with my best wishes. Possibly the club could have been a little cleverer in it's contractual dealings but....well, shit happens.
Edited by reekie, Mar 10 2011, 07:04 PM.
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Skeletor
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Mar 10 2011, 08:57 PM
Post #52
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Most likely to be Ann Widdecombe
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- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 11:27 AM
As business with a turnover of £5M - £6M pa and wage bill of £3M pa, it is inconceivable that there are insufficient resources to pay any of the out of contract players what they are asking for (unless Davie Robertson won't accept a penny less than £20k per week).
Thompson has made a decision on the relative worth of the players to the club versus their demands and decided that the club would be better served by not paying what is being asked. That's won't pay, not can't pay. Eh? Since we've only made a tiny profit of £66,000, and for instance say those three players ask for an extra £500 a week more than their already paltry (in footballing standards) wages, thats £78,000 more to the wage bill. Overall the increase in turnover was £203,000, which brought us from loss into profit. But that was in a pretty spectacular year, so we can expect less next year. That's taking a stab at it, what am I missing here that makes it inconceivable not to be able to pay those players that tiny increment?
We've learned a big financial lesson from the past two transfer windows in that we realised just how poor the SPL's currency is. More than £1m profit is walking out the door at the end of the season. If the club is going to be run in "feeder" mode, as the management wish, then we better keep things ticking over next time, and start finding the new Swanson or Gomis or Buaben pretty soon. It's not impossible that we may replace these players with more undiscovered talent.
Edited by Skeletor, Mar 10 2011, 10:38 PM.
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Ivan
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Mar 10 2011, 09:48 PM
Post #53
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- whatsthatonyourback
- Mar 10 2011, 04:59 PM
- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 04:13 PM
- whatsthatonyourback
- Mar 10 2011, 03:44 PM
Incidentally - any link to where ST says he has "no option"?
That's what can't means.
Well, I assumed you would have these at your fingertips since you'd made such a big deal over it, as small as it may be. Anyway, I went to all the effort to find these links below. First three I looked at from today's press. No mention of "can't" or anything synonymous. Where oh where have you deduced that ST is suggesting that his hands are tied and there is nothing that can be done? Without any evidence to back up your claim, I'd be inclined to think you've made that up to suit your dislike of ST due to, och, whatever it is. Anyway, here we are - the bold is mine. Jesus wept, whatsthat, have you not got better things to worry about. If I've misrepresented the United official line, you'll forgive me, I've only referred to one source.
- Quote:
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In the Tele tonight - pretty much all the out of contract players are either leaving or have asked for terms that United can't meet.
I daren't think how much that midfield might have been worth in different times. Houston's got some job on his hands replacing them.
You're like Yazoo on the blob.
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Ivan
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Mar 10 2011, 09:59 PM
Post #54
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- Skeletor
- Mar 10 2011, 08:57 PM
- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 11:27 AM
As business with a turnover of £5M - £6M pa and wage bill of £3M pa, it is inconceivable that there are insufficient resources to pay any of the out of contract players what they are asking for (unless Davie Robertson won't accept a penny less than £20k per week).
Thompson has made a decision on the relative worth of the players to the club versus their demands and decided that the club would be better served by not paying what is being asked. That's won't pay, not can't pay.
Eh? Since we've only made a tiny profit of £66,000, and for instance say those three players ask for an extra £500 a week more than their already paltry (in footballing standards) wages, thats £78,000 more to the wage bill. Overall the increase in turnover was £203,000, which brought us from loss into profit. But that was in a pretty spectacular year, so we can expect less next year. That's taking a stab at it, what am I missing here that makes it inconceivable to be able to pay those players that tiny increment? We've learned a big financial lesson from the past two transfer windows in that we realised just how poor the SPL's currency is. More than £1m profit is walking out the door at the end of the season. If the club is going to be run in "feeder" mode, as the management wish, then we better keep things ticking over next time, and start finding the new Swanson or Gomis or Buaben pretty soon. It's not impossible that we may replace these players with more undiscovered talent. That's incomprehensible even by your standards, Skeletor.
Are you disagreeing with me, or did you just not read my post properly*.
* Because you can't have read it and disagree with me.
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Skeletor
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Mar 10 2011, 10:43 PM
Post #55
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Most likely to be Ann Widdecombe
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- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 09:59 PM
- Skeletor
- Mar 10 2011, 08:57 PM
- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 11:27 AM
As business with a turnover of £5M - £6M pa and wage bill of £3M pa, it is inconceivable that there are insufficient resources to pay any of the out of contract players what they are asking for (unless Davie Robertson won't accept a penny less than £20k per week).
Thompson has made a decision on the relative worth of the players to the club versus their demands and decided that the club would be better served by not paying what is being asked. That's won't pay, not can't pay.
Eh? Since we've only made a tiny profit of £66,000, and for instance say those three players ask for an extra £500 a week more than their already paltry (in footballing standards) wages, thats £78,000 more to the wage bill. Overall the increase in turnover was £203,000, which brought us from loss into profit. But that was in a pretty spectacular year, so we can expect less next year. That's taking a stab at it, what am I missing here that makes it inconceivable not to be able to pay those players that tiny increment? We've learned a big financial lesson from the past two transfer windows in that we realised just how poor the SPL's currency is. More than £1m profit is walking out the door at the end of the season. If the club is going to be run in "feeder" mode, as the management wish, then we better keep things ticking over next time, and start finding the new Swanson or Gomis or Buaben pretty soon. It's not impossible that we may replace these players with more undiscovered talent.
That's incomprehensible even by your standards, Skeletor. Are you disagreeing with me, or did you just not read my post properly*. * Because you can't have read it and disagree with me. Thats, what am I missing here based on that stab at calculation; how is it inconceivable that there are insufficient funds?
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whatsthatonyourback
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Mar 11 2011, 09:23 AM
Post #56
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- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 09:48 PM
Jesus wept, whatsthat, have you not got better things to worry about. If I've misrepresented the United official line, you'll forgive me, I've only referred to one source. - Quote:
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In the Tele tonight - pretty much all the out of contract players are either leaving or have asked for terms that United can't meet.
I daren't think how much that midfield might have been worth in different times. Houston's got some job on his hands replacing them.
You're like Yazoo on the blob. That is hilarious.
So you're basing your entire can't/won't argument on my OP? You really need a better source than that.
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Ivan
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Mar 11 2011, 09:37 AM
Post #57
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- whatsthatonyourback
- Mar 11 2011, 09:23 AM
- Ivan
- Mar 10 2011, 09:48 PM
Jesus wept, whatsthat, have you not got better things to worry about. If I've misrepresented the United official line, you'll forgive me, I've only referred to one source. - Quote:
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In the Tele tonight - pretty much all the out of contract players are either leaving or have asked for terms that United can't meet.
I daren't think how much that midfield might have been worth in different times. Houston's got some job on his hands replacing them.
You're like Yazoo on the blob.
That is hilarious. So you're basing your entire can't/won't argument on my OP? You really need a better source than that. Or, you missed the point four pages back. I've only responded to your ramblings since then.
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Conan the Destroyer
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Mar 11 2011, 09:56 AM
Post #58
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I prefer it when we're pish
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On the bright side, we'll be getting shot of Shala. I'll kill myself if he is the one that stays. That's a promise.
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Cobardon
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Mar 11 2011, 12:45 PM
Post #59
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You're a right miserable bunch for supporters of a team who have all but guaranteed their top 6 place and stand to make the Cup Semis again this weekend, aren't you?
Enjoy it while it's good and worry about the mess of next season if that's what comes to pass next season. Times is good as an Arab!
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Naebody
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Mar 11 2011, 01:26 PM
Post #60
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- Cobardon
- Mar 11 2011, 12:45 PM
You're a right miserable bunch for supporters of a team who have all but guaranteed their top 6 place and stand to make the Cup Semis again this weekend, aren't you? Enjoy it while it's good and worry about the mess of next season if that's what comes to pass next season. Times is good as an Arab! That's fair, but it's worth underlining that the misery among fans is radiating out from the club itself.
I've not yet found the logic trail through all that spittle and bile related to the can't/won't debate, so won't take sides. However, the issue seems quite simple:
United's squad will get worse. That's the upshot of Thompson's comments. The club isn't going to be paying the wages needed to employ established players, so signings will be restricted to journeymen and those at the start or end of their careers. And, as soon as a young player becomes established, his days are numbered. It's effectively putting a glass ceiling on the team's ability to compete.
Is this a fiscal necessity? Yes and no.
The club is simply unable to run below break-even because no bank is going to extend credit lines. Meanwhile, revenue has been falling steadily over the past decade and there's nothing on the horizon to reverse that trend. So as the outlook for income keeps darkening, the wage bill has to be cut and cut and cut just to keep the bank tolerant. That's a basic.
The problem, of course, is The Death Spiral. By cutting costs you're making the product worse. And, as the product becomes worse, your income falls. And as your income falls, more costs have to be cut. But by cutting costs you're making the product worse. And, as the product becomes worse, your income falls. Etc.
What's needed is someone at the top to say: "here's what we want to achieve and this is what it'll cost, so this is how we'll be paying for it." A plan, basically.
Instead, we have someone saying: "here's what we can afford, irrespective of what results."
Thompson has effectively told us all that the club is entering The Death Spiral. No wonder we're miserable.
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