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The big very late Brexit thread
Topic Started: Dec 8 2017, 12:36 PM (1,936 Views)
Cobardon
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Uncle Smurf
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Just wondering how everyone is viewing the ongoing omnishambles that is our huffy stomping off from the EU?

Will it be the making of us a modern nation(s)? Or will we be wormfood?

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vvhatsthatonyourback
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the last thing on his mind
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Brexit means Brexit.

/thread
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litljortindan2
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Ian McCall
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The dream/nightmare of a fully deregulated shithole can come true.
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Setenza
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Knitting with only one needle
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It's a shame that May and Davies seem to not be the best at negotiating, I guess it would be in all our interests if we somehow managed to get a strong footing on which to move forward.

Although it does have the feel that no-one really had much of a plan for how to resolve some of the sticking points. If the Greece/EU stuff is anything to go by, it'll drag on forever, pushing the key issues back and back.

I still hope we can be in a position to push ahead our own way outside the EU, whatever that means. Just a shame it's caught up in so much other nonsense that's happening at the same time around the world.

But still feels like a lot of people thinking/hoping that it won't actually happen.

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vvhatsthatonyourback
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the last thing on his mind
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Setenza
Dec 9 2017, 06:05 PM
I still hope we can be in a position to push ahead our own way outside the EU, whatever that means.
That's the very problem though. What does that actually mean? Every time I hear someone try to propose something specific, which doesn't happen very often, it is immediately apparent that it's not possible, not better than what we already have within the EU, already *is* possible within the EU, is trivial, or is utterly stupid.
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Conan the Destroyer
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I prefer it when we're pish
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We're taking our country back, innit.
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Setenza
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Knitting with only one needle
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vvhatsthatonyourback
Dec 10 2017, 12:16 PM
Setenza
Dec 9 2017, 06:05 PM
I still hope we can be in a position to push ahead our own way outside the EU, whatever that means.
That's the very problem though. What does that actually mean? Every time I hear someone try to propose something specific, which doesn't happen very often, it is immediately apparent that it's not possible, not better than what we already have within the EU, already *is* possible within the EU, is trivial, or is utterly stupid.
Isn't that the point though? We're not doing specific policies, we're setting ourselves up in a way that we're able to move forward however we see fit, with whoever we elect to do that. Who knows what crazy polices Prime Minister Corbyn will introduce.

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Morvant's Finest
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Tommy McLean
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I don't want to fall out with anyone but the whole thing's an absolute f*cking shambles isn't it?

The whole thing makes me very sad.... :-/

We need to do everything we can to make sure it doesn't happen.
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vvhatsthatonyourback
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the last thing on his mind
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Setenza
Dec 11 2017, 01:02 PM
vvhatsthatonyourback
Dec 10 2017, 12:16 PM
Setenza
Dec 9 2017, 06:05 PM
I still hope we can be in a position to push ahead our own way outside the EU, whatever that means.
That's the very problem though. What does that actually mean? Every time I hear someone try to propose something specific, which doesn't happen very often, it is immediately apparent that it's not possible, not better than what we already have within the EU, already *is* possible within the EU, is trivial, or is utterly stupid.
Isn't that the point though? We're not doing specific policies, we're setting ourselves up in a way that we're able to move forward however we see fit, with whoever we elect to do that. Who knows what crazy polices Prime Minister Corbyn will introduce.

The point is that everything that has been suggested we could do is - well, see my previous post.

It's an emotional convulsion in reaction to unrelated and difficult to articulate problems of neglect and underinvestment.

There's also a huge divergence of interests between the people who campaigned for Brexit and the people who voted for it.


I put the entire blame for Brexit on the UK voting system, which has stored up this problem for decades by ignoring concerns - some genuine, some misguided, some idiotic - because the "first past the post" system (a name that appropriately misrepresents itself) allows difficult issues to be ignored in favour of simplistic slogans and internal party politics.

Even with the current system, which is designed to deliver unrepresentatively strong government, we've had three inconclusive or very narrow elections in a row. The political system and the populace is confused and undecided. That's exactly not the time to be implementing a profound change to our relationship with the world based on a narrow vote with an utterly opaque mandate. We're in a crisis, and the usual suspect on the right and libertarian fringes are taking their usual advantage of such a crisis.

I could fkn rant on about this for days.
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vvhatsthatonyourback
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the last thing on his mind
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Go on then, Set. Tell us what we could do after Brexit that is worth doing and we couldn't do before.

There must a be a few things. Anyone? Play along at home!
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Setenza
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Knitting with only one needle
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vvhatsthatonyourback
Dec 12 2017, 01:55 PM
Go on then, Set. Tell us what we could do after Brexit that is worth doing and we couldn't do before.

There must a be a few things. Anyone? Play along at home!
Well to state the obvious, limit movement of people from the EU. Not saying it's desirable for me, but it is a non-trivial issue that isn't possible inside the EU or some half way deal. It was a major factor during the campaign and drove a lot of votes from people who wanted it, but couldn't get it inside the EU.

It may be the issue that's easy to say it's stupid or foolish or people who want it are idiots, but it was an important factor.


Beyond that, I can only repeat what I said before, it's whatever people want. Maybe big changes to fisheries policies or having the government more able intervene to boost certain industries or give state aid. I've no idea what people may want in the future.





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TheDean
ALLEGEDLY CALICO
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Stopping the subsidisation of inefficient French farmers and rich UK landowners sounds a great idea to me.
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Cobardon
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Uncle Smurf
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TheDean
Dec 13 2017, 09:32 PM
Stopping the subsidisation of inefficient French farmers and rich UK landowners sounds a great idea to me.
Whoa there a minute. You actually think that Brexit will halt French farming subsidies or those to rich British landowners? You realise that currently the Tories get to make the rules on farming and who gets public handouts, right? You realise we still have to trade with those same inefficient French farmers thus subsiding them too don't you? Only now we'll have no say at all in CAP and -at best- will do those trades using EU rules?

And we all realise that rather than taking back control of our own waters for fishing rights, we will need to negotiate with a block of all those same countries we negotiate with now, only with no clout at the table? That we export 75% of our fish catch is somehow seen as a bargaining chip for us to use yet the German auto industry selling us 14% of their exports means they need us to sell them to so we'll get a good deal?

There we have the reason for Brexit in a nutshell. People don't seem able to think beyond a headline.
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Morvant's Finest
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Tommy McLean
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Quote:
 
we will need to negotiate with a block of all those same countries we negotiate with now, only with no clout at the table?
Yep, that's our glorious future after we've taken back control :holein1:

On a lighter note, the Tories are revolting and the Mail is in full Shark Jumping mode :popcorn:

Posted Image
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vvhatsthatonyourback
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the last thing on his mind
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Setenza
Dec 13 2017, 12:50 AM
vvhatsthatonyourback
Dec 12 2017, 01:55 PM
Go on then, Set. Tell us what we could do after Brexit that is worth doing and we couldn't do before.

There must a be a few things. Anyone? Play along at home!
Well to state the obvious, limit movement of people from the EU. Not saying it's desirable for me, but it is a non-trivial issue that isn't possible inside the EU or some half way deal. It was a major factor during the campaign and drove a lot of votes from people who wanted it, but couldn't get it inside the EU.

It may be the issue that's easy to say it's stupid or foolish or people who want it are idiots, but it was an important factor.


Beyond that, I can only repeat what I said before, it's whatever people want. Maybe big changes to fisheries policies or having the government more able intervene to boost certain industries or give state aid. I've no idea what people may want in the future.

Pretty much everything you mention can already be done within the EU. Plenty of EU countries have tougher freedom of movement rules within the EU. We've chosen not to implement them.

If a change is being proposed, it is customary to be specific as to what the problem is and how the proposed change will fix it. With Brexit, the problem is stated in the most vague and high level terms and whenever the results of the proposed change get specific enough to be assessed, they are ineffective. To avoid the failings of Brexit becoming clear enough to repel even the most ardent nationalist fool, those proposing it just spout meaningless phrases, tautologies, misrepresentation and lies.

It's the stupidest thing ever done by a UK government.
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